Love Is more powerful than death

In this interview, MIRABAI BUSH is interviewed by PURNIMA RAMAKRISHNAN about the influence of spiritual practice on relationships and the healing of wounds like betrayal and loss. She also explores the interconnectedness of all beings and the impermanence of life through the lens of spiritual practice.

PR: Welcome Mirabai. It’s lovely to have you with us again.

MB: Thank you Purnima, for me too.

PR: Today I’d like to ask you about how a spiritual practice can influence our relationship with others.

MB: When I first learned meditation and other practices in the Buddhist tradition, which came out of a monastic setting, they were about sitting on the cushion, closing your eyes, and being with yourself. It had nothing to do with other people. And yoga was something you did with other people, but it wasn’t about relationships. There are old clichés about navel-gazing, and how contemplative practices cut you off from the world and others rather than connect you. Well, the truth is, some practices done in silence, like meditation, do leave you by yourself, even in a room with others. Through spiritual practice, though, you begin to recognize how you are interconnected with everything, including other people.

As you learn to be at home in the space of awareness, you naturally recognize that it holds everything and that there is no other. We’ve been working on a new book, curating some of Ram Dass’s writings on interconnection, and we’re going to call it There Is No Other. Because, at this time, especially in the USA, but also in India, people are increasingly separating themselves from other groups. We know that treating others as if they are separate means they are not treated with the care, love, and respect we give to those we see as like us.

Meditation, and other spiritual practices, help us come home to awareness, show us that there is no other. This is something we begin to know ourselves. We don’t have to hear it from anyone else, though teachers help by reminding us of what we’re discovering inside.

Also, practices of compassion, love, and kindness help in a specific way. Compassion is empathy. It is the ability to walk in another’s shoes and feel what they’re feeling. That’s the heart of compassion. Compassion also includes the desire to relieve another’s suffering, rejoice in their happiness (which can be difficult), and be moved to act in ways that ease their suffering. To do this, you need to be aware and empathic, knowing what another person is going through, and what their suffering is. You also need self-awareness.

In dialogue and relationships, it’s important to understand what you’re bringing to the situation, as well as what the other person is bringing. That awareness comes from self-awareness. We all know times when we’re on automatic, bringing prejudgments to a situation. Seeing that is crucial. It allows you to see who the other person is, separate from who you want them to be, or what your biases are. These practices are directly and practically useful for creating good relationships and for truly being present, being here in this moment with others.

Compassion is empathy. 
It is the ability to walk in another’s shoes
and feel what they’re feeling.
That’s the heart of compassion.

I’m not making Ram Dass into a saint, but he taught me a lot about this. When I first traveled with him, he was already a teacher. People loved being with him, loved hearing what he said, and they were always happy talking to him. That seemed normal, and we took it for granted. At the airport, he’d go to the desk, and he would just be there, not saying anything special, not doing anything in particular, just being really present with the person behind the counter. And I’d notice how that person, while doing their job, would suddenly smile a little or seem genuinely happy handing him his ticket. It kept happening, over and over.

How does that happen?

It wasn’t about the particular person he encountered. Over time, I worked on it myself because it’s such a beautiful way to go through life. To have these moments with people you may never see again, with all kinds of people, as well as in your closest relationships. To have those moments of “here we are, doing our thing. This moment will never come again, let’s be here for it.” We can talk about that idea, but the ability to actually do it, to let everything else go and be fully present in the moment, comes through practice. In my experience, that’s what has helped me.

PR: Thank you. That’s really beautiful. I would like to ask you about the other side of a relationship: How do spiritual practices help heal wounds like betrayal, loss, and grief? It’s easy to discuss these ideas, but how do we truly heal the heart? Betrayal, loss, and broken trust happen not only in relationships with a spouse or partner, but also in friendships, professional connections, or any bond.

MB: I was thinking about this before we got on this call, and some examples in my life came up, like a blues song by American blues singer Keb’ Mo’. He said, “I’m feeling like dust on an empty shelf.” I can remember feeling that way.

The basic things a spiritual practice teaches us are: first, it’s all interconnected, and second, it’s all impermanent. Now, at 85, I can say everything is changing all the time. The message is to recognize that. Moments come and go, so many things in our lives come and go, and even within relationships, they’re always changing. Spiritual practice helps us let go of negative emotions, not repress them, but let them go and be here in this moment. Often, even if someone has left and your heart is broken, in this moment, everything’s okay. I’m here, I’m alive, and the future’s ahead of me.

Self-awareness really helps with recovering from hard loss, seeing how much of it is real and how much you’re bringing to it. In a classic relationship: “Okay, he or she has left. He doesn’t love me anymore. He’s gone.”

The whole issue of self-judgment is important. It’s not about stopping it, but seeing it as it arises and letting it go. Then continuing to see it and let it go. Self-compassion allows you to love yourself. Simple self-compassion meditations, like putting your hand on your heart and saying, “I’m having a hard time right now. Everyone suffers. I’m suffering now. I give myself the care and kindness I’d give a good friend if she were suffering,” can really help. Just breathing in and out that loving-kindness for yourself makes a difference.

In recent years, I’ve worked a lot with grief and loss around death. I wrote Walking Each Other Home with Ram Dass, and I’m old, so people around me are dying. Every relationship ends in one way or another; ultimately, one person will die and that relationship, as it stands, will end. But loving relationships never truly end. When people die, the love remains within you. That being is there in a different way, you’re not alone. I’ve heard that before, but after losing so many close people, I’ve realized it’s true.

I had a dream about Ram Dass after he died. We’d been friends for 50 years, and losing him was a huge loss. In the dream, we were sitting on cushions in a circle, waiting in silence. I leaned back and touched him, and I felt this warm, light feeling that everything was fine. He leaned back too and said, “I’m here.” That was the end of the dream. It felt like a confirmation that even when the loss is through death, the love and connection remain.

Spiritual practice helps us 
let go of negative emotions, 
not repress them,
but let them go and 
be here in this moment.

Relationships of all kinds—romantic, familial, and friendships—benefit from appreciation and forgiveness. Compassion practice helps; recognizing that this person, like me, just wants to be happy, and they’re doing what they think will make them happy, even if it hurts me. And they’ve suffered too, just like me.

We’re all doing the best we can with what we understand at the moment. That perspective helps. It’s not all about you, it’s also about them. I’ve been the person who left, and that’s hard too. Practice helps you not take yourself too seriously and see things as they are.

PR: You spoke about loving and dying, about impermanence in relationships, and about feeling that the person is still with you. When we say affirmations, like, “Yes, my loved one is with me,” or think about someone who has passed, we do feel that connection. Sometimes we have had very little time with someone who is very loved, cherished, and close. I think about how that love carries forward, even if the time together was brief.

MB: Grandparents and great-grandparents, for example, are very important. I am one too, a grandparent. I have one granddaughter, and my relationship with her is one of the most precious in my life, and I know it is for her too. And I know I’m going to die pretty soon before she does. When I started writing the book, I began thinking about how long people remember us after we die. I thought about my mother, who died 40 years ago, and tried to remember, what do I really remember about her? I have an idea of my mother, but how much do I actually remember?

I used to run groups for women in spiritual practice, and we’d go around the group in the beginning. Each woman would say her name, her mother’s name, her grandmother’s name, as far back as she could go. Most women in this country couldn’t go past their grandmother’s first name. Immigration cut off a lot of family lines for various reasons. That made me realize that if Dahlia (my granddaughter) has a daughter in the future, that daughter probably won’t know my name. That hit me. How could that be? But it was true for so many women.

It’s important to know that 
we grieve because we’ve lost
someone we love. 
Without love, there’s no grief.

So I asked: What practices can we do to keep the people we love alive, so what they brought into the world can continue to be a gift for the rest of us?

In many cultures, they already do this, but I made a little altar. I put up pictures of the people I love who have died and promised to visit them every day, even if just for a moment, to remember. I put it in my meditation room, and every day I’d stop at the little table altar and look at each picture. What I found (and this is an aside, but it has to do with aging) was that in the beginning, there were about half a dozen pictures. By the end of the two years writing the book, there were so many pictures that I had to start another table. So many people were dying. Now there’s a crowd there. I have to go in and say hello to each one of them. A lot of times, we just have pictures around of people we love who have died, but I tried to make it more ritualistic, more formal, so it became a practice. I’m more likely to do it every day than just appreciating the pictures when I happen to see them.

It’s important to know that we grieve because we’ve lost someone we love. Without love, there’s no grief. If someone dies who you don’t care about, they’re just gone. Grief is really about love, and that love doesn’t go away. You carry them in your heart, you just need to awaken it, to remember, for them to come alive within you. As I said, I’d heard those words in my life, but it wasn’t until I started losing people I really loved, people I didn’t want to lose, that I began to see grief as not a loss, but a transformation.

Neem Karoli Baba Maharaj ji said, “Love is more powerful than death.” It turns out, the people we love stay alive in that love, even when their bodies die.

I just finished writing a memoir because I wanted the stories to be there. We learn through stories. Also, grief is real. Just because it is only the body that dies doesn’t mean grief isn’t real. It’s different for everyone, because it depends on the whole relationship and past losses that resurface. It comes in surprising ways.

Neem Karoli Baba Maharaj ji said,
“Love is more powerful than
death.” It turns out, the people we love
stay alive in that love, even when
their bodies die.

It’s important not to feel, “I shouldn’t be grieving,” but to honor it. If you’re feeling sad, acknowledge it: “Yes, I’m feeling sad. People feel sad when they lose someone they love.”

Honor that grief. Don’t repress it. Use the same self-compassion to see it, honor it, because it’s there for a reason. It’s there because you’ve loved someone so much, and it’s trying to find a new way to be with that being.

PR: I like what you said: it’s a new way of being with your loved one. And it’s a very mature way of looking at it. I never thought of it like that. Thank you so much for this beautiful and insightful time we spent together.

MB: Thank you, too.