PETER WOHLLEBEN is a forester in the
best sense of the word. He is the author of a number of books, including
The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate –
Discoveries from a Secret World, which was a New York Times bestseller. His latest book,
The Heartbeat of Trees: Embracing Our Ancient Bonds with Forests and
Nature, will be released in June 2021. Here, he is interviewed by
ELIZABETH DENLEY about his work with
forests and what inspires him about the natural world.
Q: Hello Peter.
PW: Hi, good to see you.
Q: Having read your books, today I would like to learn about you: What
has inspired you to follow this path of being in tune with nature, with
trees in particular, and where did it all start?
PW: Where did it start? I really
don’t know, because I grew up for the first few years in Bonn, the former
capital of Germany, and when I was five we moved to a little town outside
of Bonn, where there was nature. My brother and two sisters are not very
interested in nature, so I am the green sheep of the family. When I was
eight, I collected money for the WWF, I was interested in the songs of
whales, I had bugs and spiders in glass jars in my room, and all kinds of
stuff like that. I was always very interested in nature, but not
especially in trees.
I became interested in trees after school, when I thought about studying
biology. I heard that the German Forest Commission was searching for
students, and thought, “Okay, a forester is something like a tree-keeper;
perhaps that’s the perfect way to connect with nature,” and it turned out
to be the wrong way. A forester is more like a tree butcher, and it is
getting worse every day in Germany. We now have the biggest tree felling
ever at the moment, something like an “end of time” scenario, even though
the Forest Commission has always declared to care for the forest and
support nature.
I think it is the same in Australia as it is in Germany, where the
foresters say they are logging wood for the benefit of nature, not for
money. They say that the forest needs renewable growth of young trees, as
they are better for the climate. But I realized that this was a problem
very soon after leaving university, so I tried to change the way of
treating the forest. Nowadays, people say, “Ah, you are not a forester
anymore.” I say, “Yes, now more than ever, because I am protecting forests
as they should be, not harvesting timber anymore.” I try to protect as
many forests as possible. In Germany we had very old beech forests, and
among all the beech forests we have only about three per mille left. That
is almost nothing. Germans are very good in giving advice to other
countries on how to protect their forests, but their own are in a very bad
state.
Q: So, you’ve moved in a very different direction. Reading your books,
I was very inspired by the science of how trees communicate, how they
interact with each other, and how they interact with humans. So, what
was the progression? Going from forester to caring for forests is one
thing, but you’re now looking at how trees interact with each other and
the world. Tell us about that. How did that evolve?
PW: I think I was always
interested in real nature, and that caused problems. After finishing
university, when I was responsible for a woodland, I thought, “Why should
I fell these old mother trees, and what should they be good for?” and
“What are we doing with all those pesticides?” So, that started very
early. But the real turning point was the establishment of a burial
forest, where a person could choose to be buried in an urn at the foot of
a tree. Some of the people who chose trees as living gravestones said
things like, “Oh, I like this tree. It is bent. It looks a bit like my
life.” As a forester, I would immediately answer, “Oh no! That’s an ugly
tree.” Why? Because it was not good for the sawmill. So, with those people
I learnt to regain the right view on trees. As a forester, you learn to
judge trees as raw material, based on how much their timber is worth, but
with the people who were choosing trees as grave sites, I learnt to look
at forests again in the way I looked at forests when I was a child.
And then I discovered that there are living stumps in this forest
supported by the surrounding trees. These 400- to 500-year-old stumps
continue to live without any green leaves. So I asked, “How can they still
be living?” Then I asked myself many questions, and
started to research. I asked other scientists about the consciousness of
trees, and if trees are able to feel pain. Then, some research was done by
a scientist at the University of Bonn, which was regarded as a little bit
esoteric. Actually, it was very strong science – besides which, esoteric
is not a bad thing.
When the pain is too strong, we are not able to decide anything,
and plants do the same thing in stress situations.
They produce pain-suppressing substances,
and that is a very strong hint that plants
are
also conscious and that they are able to feel pain.
The researcher found out that plants and trees are really able to feel
pain, and that’s one of the topics in my new book. Pain may be a reflex.
For example, when insects bite the bark of a tree, we can measure an
electrical signal in the tree. Can we call that a defensive reaction pain?
We don’t know. But we do know that plants and trees are able to produce
pain-suppressing substances. We also do that in certain situations, when
we have big stress, and when pain disturbs our mind.
When the pain is too strong, we are not able to decide anything, and
plants do the same thing in stress situations. They produce
pain-suppressing substances, and that is a very strong hint that plants
are also conscious and that they are able to feel pain. Now, that is a
sacrilege, because the next question we often hear is, “Then, what should
vegetarians eat?” But that is not the point. It is just a surprise that
plants are nearer to us than we thought, and the categories – animals,
plants, humans – are made by scientists to sort nature, but they have
nothing to do with how much worth living beings have, and how living
beings are able to feel and to work together with other beings. So, the
dividing line between animals and plants is falling at the moment.
Q: From the perspective of yogic science, there is the classification
of the three bodies – the physical body, the subtle body, which is
consciousness, mind, etc., and the causal body or soul. All three bodies
exist from the mineral kingdom up to the animal kingdom, including
humans. And the differences lie in how separate those bodies can be. In
a stone or rock, for example, the three bodies are very closely bound,
whereas in plants they can be more separate. We see this in the way
plants can respond to sunlight, or close their leaves with touch, and
all sorts of other sensitivities. In animals, the three bodies are more
separate again, to the extent that in human beings and maybe other
animal species, the mental body can move out of the physical body. For
example, when we dream, or when I am here in Australia,
thinking of you in Germany, my mind is with you there.
So, for yogis, consciousness is in everything, even in atoms. It is how
much flexibility or separation there is from the physical body, and how
expanded consciousness is, that varies from one type of organism to
another. It is interesting that science now is also seeing that all
living beings have consciousness in some way. Plants’ consciousness may
not be like ours, but what’s fascinating is that plants are able to
store, utilize and hold
atmosphere, because they harness energy and don’t dissipate it the way
humans do. That is why you can have a beautiful sacred grove of trees,
which feels so lovely, because the trees harness the good vibes from the
atmosphere and hold them much better than we can. It’s quite
fascinating.
PW: Yes. What interests me most is,
“What is really important for our life?” I think plants can feel pain. I
think they can feel much more, also, but pain is what we can
scientifically detect very easily. We know that animals feel love, pain,
and other things. I think the main difference is intelligence, but
intelligence is not the most important thing in our life. If you ask
anyone, they will tell you, “The most important thing is love, to be
happy.” This is to do with our emotions, and our emotions have nothing to
do with intelligence. Trees won’t write books, probably because they don’t
need them, and perhaps because they are not able to. But it doesn’t
matter. Trees feel and they care for each other. You know, plants even
respond to experiments like the dogs of the scientist, Pavlov, who rang
the bell and the dogs salivated. You can do similar experiments with peas.
They are able to learn in such complex ways, and they are plants.
We know that trees care for each other and nowadays we also know
about epigenetics. Just as we pass learned experiences to our children,
trees are able to do the same thing. We know from recent research that
seedlings know exactly how to deal with new conditions, and that is very
good news in times of climate change. Trees are constantly learning –
lifelong learning. So, for example, when a 1000-year-old oak makes
seedlings, those seedlings have the experience from the parent’s 1000
years. They are able to change their way of living so that they can
survive in new conditions. Unfortunately, nowadays, foresters don’t give
the trees time to learn, and that’s not good. In Germany, they say, “Those
beech trees are dying,” and I am saying, “No, they are learning. Let them
be. Don’t disturb them by cutting the older trees from their communities. Don’t strip those family banks. Let them
learn.” We create hard times for trees, but they are able to deal with it.
There is also new research from Germany and Russia, showing that trees can
cool down their surrounding landscape by up to 15 degrees Celsius. They
can actively create rain. And right now we are suffering from heat and
drought. Trees are able to bring the thermostat down and bring the rain
back, which is what we need. The only thing they need is peace. They don’t
need chainsaws. That is the solution. It is so easy.
We are suffering from heat and drought.
Trees are able to bring the thermostat down
and bring the rain back,
which is what we need.
The only thing they need is peace.
They don’t need chainsaws.
That is the solution.
It is so easy.
Q: You have mentioned climate change. With animal species, we are in the
middle of a mass extinction. Is the same thing happening with plants, or
are plants able to weather the situation better?
PW: The thing is, we don’t know
exactly what is happening with animals. For example, we work with an
entomologist who is researching insects. He says that in Germany only 25%
of the insects have been well researched and 75% have not been researched,
so we don’t know if they will go extinct or not, because we have so little
insight. And with plants it is even worse, because what are plants worth?
In most people’s eyes they are just plants, as insects are just insects.
We look only at mammals – “Oh, they are very important” – but insects are
also important; bacteria are also important. There are so many things that
we haven’t discovered.
So I would say that, yes, we see the same phenomena. But because we don’t
know what’s going on, we shouldn’t concentrate on single species, like
rhinos or elephants; we should focus instead on the big ecosystems. And I
think that’s also happening. We have various politicians saying that 30 to
50% of the landscape (most say 50%) on Earth needs to be protected,
without human interference, to rescue all those species, because we don’t
know what we are going to lose. I think we will also lose many plant
species.
Q: Hopefully, humanity will change its attitude going forward. Can we
now turn a little bit away from this very hot topic, to know something
of your personal experience and your stories? What have you discovered
working with trees, working with forests? What inspires you about your
work?
PW: I am always curious to look at
how trees behave. For example, it is said that cherries can’t grow in the
shade. And then I see an old forest, a protected area, with big beech
trees that create the deepest shade you can image, and underneath those
beech trees there are cherry trees growing. And they shouldn’t do that
according to scientists. I love discoveries like that. You see, the
scientists are wrong; cherry trees don’t need sunlight, they only need to
be left alone, without our disturbance. That’s the point. Another thing I
discovered was how slowly young beech seedlings grow. You can see little
knots on their branches, and when you count those knots, which are like
year-rings in timber, you discover that these seedlings of twenty to
thirty centimeters in height are about thirty years old. You can estimate
that a tree of two to four meters in height is about 150 years, and they
are waiting for their chance to grow up. They have to wait until their
mother-tree dies, and that may be another two or three centuries. I love
to see how slow a forest is. There are so many little hints to show you
how slow forests are, how slow trees are. They don’t like to be in the
fast lane. You discover all this when you walk through a forest which is
unstripped, and that is when you see many little lovely things.
I love to see how slow a forest is.
There are so many little hints to show you how slow forests are, how slow
trees are.
They don’t like to be in the fast lane.
You discover all this when you walk through a forest which is
unstripped,
and that is when you see many little lovely things.
Q: So, they have patience, waiting for the right time.
PW: Yes, they are just waiting for
their chance. And there is also good news: You get forests back everywhere
as long as you let them come. For example, we have a tennis court here in
the neighboring village. In the last three years, we have had a very bad
drought in Germany, very hot summers, the highest temperatures every, many
months with nearly no rain, and so many forests have suffered. And this
tennis court in the sun is the worst place for trees. During those three
years, because no one cared for the tennis court, it has become full of
young trees. We don’t know where they get their water from. It is the
driest place around, but it is fenced in so no one gets in. And there are
ten different tree species and they are healthy. Forests come back
everywhere. You just have to let them grow.
Q: This is obviously a key message. If we are going to change, it’s got
to come from education, from early childhood, so, what would you do with
children? What would you suggest to educationists to bring about a shift
in our consciousness towards trees?
PW: There are many different things.
For example, I also write children’s books, and the newest book will be
released in two weeks. I write books for children from age two years up,
for different age groups, and the main topic of these books is to go out
and experience trees yourself. I founded a forest academy here in the
neighboring village, and we go out with the children. We don’t teach them
which tree species these are, we teach them what the trees are doing, and
that the public is the caretaker of the forest. And the public for us
includes the children, because children count. And we tell them what their
possibilities of influence are.
For example, we teach them that they can be very loud in a forest,
because that is very relaxing for animals. When children are shouting
loudly, then the animals know that there are no hunters approaching, so
they can relax. I love things like that. For me it’s important that the
children feel well, and say, “It’s like a big living room for us. That is
our real living room, where we belong.” The biggest problem is always when
they are with their parents. After ten minutes, the parents say, “Hurry
up, we have to go and continue our hike.” We say, “No. It’s a hike for
children. If the children want to stay at the same place for two hours,
it’s fine.”
Q: Are your books for children translated into English, Peter?
PW: I think we have so far
translated three into English.
Q: Can you send me the names of those books? Normally, I live in India,
at the Heartfulness headquarters. It is a 1,400 acre property called
Kanha Shanti Vanam, which means forest of peace. And we have a school
there, where children come from all over the world. You would love it.
Six years ago the land was barren, but we now have rainforests growing,
and we’ve planted half a million trees. As you mentioned, trees create
their own microclimate. They create rain, they rejuvenate the water
table. It’s incredible that in six years this place, which was
completely barren, has over seventy bird species and is full of forests.
The children are out in nature all the time, and I would love to give
them your books. The German government is working with us, so it is also
a German language school, and we will be able to give them your original
books in German as well as the English translations.
PW: I can give you the titles.
One is called Can You Hear the Trees Talking? It is for the
middle age group. Another is Peter and the Tree Children, a
picture book of a squirrel which has no family, and discovers that trees
have families. At the end of the book, he is adopted by the forest as his
family.
Q: Lovely! Let’s finish up with your new book for adults that will be
released in June – The Heartbeat of Trees. Tell us what
inspired it, and what will readers discover in it?
PW: There are some new
discoveries about trees, and the title gives a hint about that direction –
how trees are able to circulate water. For me, what is even more important
is the question: Have we lost the bond with nature? Many people say that
humans can’t hear as well as animals, we can’t smell as well as animals,
and so on. But we are so strongly connected with nature. We just have to
sharpen our senses, and then we can connect with nature, understand nature
better, and receive more health benefits. The book circles around both
themes, with many examples of how strongly we are connected, how important
it is to save nature, and to understand that we are still a very strong
part of nature. In general, we are not destroyers of nature. It is just a
question of how we behave when we are out.
We are so strongly connected with nature.
We just have to sharpen our senses,
and then we can connect with nature,
understand nature better,
and receive more health benefits.
Q: I am hoping everybody will read it. It is so good to see the science
supporting this viewpoint.
PW: There is hope. I am really
convinced that in the next five or ten years we will see a turn in these
things. I am really optimistic that we are able to deal with climate
change, to stop it. But for that we need the help of nature. The most
important thing is to let natural forests come back, to let nature come
back. In my opinion, it’s not about coal and not about oil, but about
meat. That’s the most important thing. The massive meat consumption is the
main climate driver, and most people don’t want to hear it, because it is
easier to buy a car with less gas consumption than to reduce meat
consumption. That’s the main topic, but we will see the change. Perhaps
because of the COVID-19 crisis, it is gaining momentum, because most
people are thinking about what they are doing.
Q: Thank you kindly, Peter. I thoroughly enjoyed our
conversation.
PW: Thank you, Elizabeth, it was
really a pleasure to talk with you.
Interviewed by ELIZABETH DENLEY