THE HEARTFUL LISTENER SERIES

In this new series, RAVI VENKATESAN delves into reflective listening, active listening, deep listening, professional listening, and the art of interpreting non-verbal cues. He explores the inward journey of listening to one’s own thoughts and feelings, culminating in the profound practice of listening to one’s heart. He provides a holistic framework and practical tools to help you evolve your listening skills, transforming them into a superpower that enhances relationships, leadership efficacy, and personal growth.

What better way to start this series than to listen to an expert on listening? Ravi interviews MARK MILTON, social entrepreneur and founder of Education 4 Peace (www.e4p.org), who brings over three decades of professional listening experience, including as President of IFOTES (2001-2010), an international federation of more than 30 National Associations of Telephone Emergency Services working on mental and emotional health promotion and suicide prevention. The high stakes of suicide prevention require extensive training and developing an extraordinary level of listening skills.

“When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know.
But if you listen, you may learn something new.”

—The Dalai Lama

The journey to becoming a social entrepreneur

Ravi: Mark, what is a social entrepreneur, and what made you become one?

Mark: I perceive a social entrepreneur as someone who’s putting energy and creativity into building something that has a social impact. An entrepreneur essentially builds something, and the social dimension is that it is for the common good, basically outside of self-interest. The intention is to serve.

Ravi: Nice! What took you down this path? Did you always have this aspiration or was there an event or turning point in your life?

Mark: When you look back, you see milestones. One key milestone was in my late 20s. I was in a good position at a Swiss watch company, doing well. I was just married, and was driving home one evening in my nice convertible sports car. My wife was waiting for me at home, and I thought, wow, this is amazing. I’m not even 30, we just need children, and my life is successful.

That night, I couldn’t sleep! I sensed a calling from another dimension, something beyond business, drawing me toward a place where I could selflessly serve and contribute to life.

When you start asking yourself questions, it leads to spaces where you ask deeper questions about your life, and things happen, things manifest. A very close friend told me, “I’m a listener on a suicide prevention hotline," and that was the beginning of a journey for me: a year after that I was trained to become a listener on the suicide prevention hotline.

It was a turning point, because I realized how learning to truly listen changes your life. You start to listen not just to other people, but also to yourself and your environment. So, I thought, “How come we don’t teach children how to listen at school?” And that’s how I got started.

The importance of listening

Ravi: That’s incredible. It fascinates me that when I talk to people about developing listening skills, they look at me as if I’ve got horns: “What do you mean? Everybody knows how to listen!” Most people take it for granted and don’t view it as a skill to be learned, a quality to be developed, or something to focus their attention on and spend time mastering. Why do you think we’ve ended up as a society where something so critical is ignored? In your case, on the suicide prevention hotline, your listening skills probably saved lives. Why do you think we’ve ended up as a society where we don’t teach it?

Mark: Even in sacred texts like the Bible, there is a lot from our ancestors around listening. You can consider listening as just hearing, “I hear you, I understand what you’re saying,” or you can go to the other extreme, which is “Am I hearing life, am I listening to what life is inviting?” You can look at listening through very different perspectives.

In my understanding, for the last 20-plus years, there has been a big shift in human communication. At the end of the 20^th century, which was also the end of the last millennium, something happened. Emotional intelligence, resilience, positive psychology, etc., started to become important. In a world that used to belong to science, we now find that self-awareness, mindfulness, meditation, and yoga are mainstream. Twenty years ago they weren’t common. Together with this, there is the dimension of healing. With all the suffering happening around the world, there is a growing collective awareness that healing is necessary, Covid certainly helped to spread this awareness.

I realized how learning to truly listen changes your life.
You start to listen not just to other people,
but also to yourself and your environment.
And that’s how I got started.

At one point or another in our lives, we all need healing. We all go through suffering. Our parents did, and our ancestors did. The awareness around listening and healing is growing. In the last 20 years, what we called soft skills—social and emotional skills—have grown into business. There’s probably no business school in the world that doesn’t have a program on soft skills. Twenty years ago this wasn’t the case.

When I started the Education 4 Peace Foundation in 2002, we were looking for schools programs on social and emotional skills, and we found only a few in Finland and Australia. Today there are tens of thousands of programs all over the world. So, to go back to your question, it’s important to take the perspective that this huge change has happened only in the last 20 years in human communication.

You are your main tool when you’re listening.
You can’t develop your listening without self-awareness.
It is an ongoing process, a life process;
even though people get diplomas,
it is a never-ending story.

Types of listening

Listening involves learning how to truly engage with someone, and there are different types of listening. In the perspective of two dimensions, one is active listening and the other is listening with empathy. These two different forms of listening both have in common the fact that they develop the awareness, the discernment, of where you are when you’re listening. Are you truly going into the other’s world, thoughts, beliefs, and emotions, or are you listening, comparing with your experience, or already sometimes thinking about what you’re going to answer when the person stops? That’s not active listening.

So just learning to be fully present with someone is something we can all learn, but we haven’t been taught, and it isn’t about psychotherapy. Every parent can learn this, every manager can learn it, and we all can learn this.

Ravi: I get goosebumps when you say this, because I think it is the biggest barrier to effective listening. It relies on us being able to restrain our own mind from generating a bunch of ad hoc thoughts that take away our attention. To your point, the biggest drawback is how to restrain, and not think about how to respond and react. How have you dealt with this issue? How do you get your mind to a place where you say, “Hey, pause, I don’t need your voice from inside because I’m paying attention to another person’s voice from outside and giving it my full attention and focus, so shut up for a while”?

Mark: I would like to make the parallel with meditation. When we learn to meditate, we become the observer of our thoughts, so we create a space between our thoughts, and that space creates blissful moments. Because of this, we suddenly feel this deep and inner peace. That’s where we live with ourselves when we meditate.

When we learn how to truly listen to someone, we do the same practice. Rather than being our thoughts inside our minds with ourselves, we start to catch our minds having an opinion, a point of view, or imagining what we want to answer. It’s a reset; we need to reprogram our default modes.

The great and amazing thing about learning to listen on a suicide prevention hotline is that you hear intense reality. You have people on the line who are suffering very deeply. You become very alert and think, “Should I answer something, or should I just be present? What am I doing with my mind, what am I doing with my energy?” You learn to develop a quality of presence, realizing that even without thinking and talking there is a deep value in being a fully-hearted presence with someone.

Ravi: It resonates right away, somehow mysteriously, even though you are not necessarily saying anything. Even though you are on a telephone, the other person feels when you are present, when they have the gift of your attention versus when they don’t. I’ve never been able to understand it, but I know it works, maybe because we are all linked at some quantum level. I have found that people know when you’re paying attention versus when you’re not. My wife certainly does! So, how do you think that works?

Mark: There’s a key. We used to say among people who worked on the helpline that when you are really with someone on the phone you can even hear their eyebrows move. You are sensing and feeling the energy of the other. The key is intention. Often, when we listen to people, our intention is not focused on the quality of connection with the other; it’s focused on the ideas we have. We want to know if what we believe is true or not, or we focus on ideas we want to get through. We usually have an intention that is connected with our needs. To learn either active listening or empathetic listening, first we need to decide to want to learn to be truly present with the other, for the beauty of the relationship, and for who the person is. It’s a process, but first we need to set that intention.

To learn either active listening or empathetic listening,
first we need to decide to want to learn
to be truly present with the other,
for the beauty of the relationship,
and for who the person is. It’s a process,
but first we need to set that intention.

When we start to work on a hotline, the conditioned trap is “I want to help them.” That’s why the training is nearly a year because we learn to decondition our habit of wanting to “save” the other. We all have this tendency, believing that helping the other is a good way to be in a relationship, without contemplating the value of first simply showing genuine presence.

Ravi: How much is it intention versus attention? I think a lot of times the intent is the best, but if we are not able to yoke our attention to it, we fail in what we are trying to achieve. What are your thoughts there?

Mark: I think they go together. Intention is about the priority of our values, including: Can you see clearly why you are listening to someone? Can you be honest about what you are trying to get out of this relationship, or not? You want to distinguish between listening to someone, because maybe emotionally they’re not doing very well, versus being able to truly listen to someone.

When you develop that empathy, that compassion, even in a business relationship where the listening is based on mutual interests and how you can get something, you can still bring the intention of being fair, of making sure that you’re in a true win-win relationship. This dimension of listening brings you the awareness of your intention. Of course, you need attention, which allows you to deliver focus, keeping in mind the questions, “Am I really focused? Do I have discernment of what’s happening?”

Nice. I find that in listening, as in many other things, the saying “familiarity breeds contempt” plays a role. In spousal relationships, with family members, even colleagues that we’ve known for a long time, as we get more familiar, we take each other for granted. This creates a barrier in effectively listening to someone. What are your thoughts on this, and personally, how do you deal with it?

Mark: Our biggest barriers in listening are the concepts we have, our beliefs, our points of view, and our opinions. We’re fast at drawing conclusions because the mind likes to know where it’s going. It can be very useful of course; in life we need to make decisions. But it can cut us off from being surprised every day by the people we’ve known for years. Even biologically and physically, every seven years we change a lot, we are not completely the same human beings. So if we can look at each other and listen to each other afresh, honoring life and allowing ourselves to continually be surprised, it is a gift. Authenticity begins when comparison ends. As soon as the story of the other resonates for us, there is a risk of comparing and not meeting them in their unique experience.

Life is movement and constantly changes
as every situation stimulates new emotions and thoughts.
It requires always being vigilant about what is happening inside you,
in terms of emotions, thought, and beliefs.
We are all biased. Are you aware of your biases?
Learning to listen to yourself is key.

Ravi: How much of listening outside has to do with listening inside? You mentioned being mindful, and meditation as a key to creating a pause between yourself and your thoughts, and that pause creating an opportunity. How much is the inner game influencing the outer game?

Mark: It is completely interdependent, and it starts inside. You can’t listen to others better than you can listen to yourself. Take again the suicide prevention hotline; you can straight away observe that your comfort or discomfort listening to someone is completely related to the relationship you have with yourself, with their topic or subject, and the projections you have on them. You are your main tool when you’re listening. You can’t develop your listening without self-awareness. It is an ongoing process, a life process; even though people get diplomas, it is a never-ending story. Life is movement and constantly changes as every situation stimulates new emotions and thoughts. It requires always being vigilant about what is happening inside you, in terms of emotions, thought, and beliefs. We are all biased. Are you aware of your biases? Learning to listen to yourself is key.

Ravi: Roger Fisher and Daniel Shapiro from the Harvard Negotiation Project, in their book Beyond Reason, talk about how we are emotional beings walking around pretending to be rational beings. Ultimately emotions play a role in every conversation and every situation, so what you said resonates.

Mark: Shifting gears, I know you worked with Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and the Nonviolent Communication movement. How did that influence you from a listening perspective, and what are one or two lessons you took away from that experience?

I learned a lot from him. When I met him in 2000 I had already been managing the suicide prevention hotline in Switzerland for six years, and I felt that a piece of the puzzle was missing. The training we went through for volunteers was based on the work of Carl Rogers, one of the pioneers in humanistic psychology who developed concepts of empathy and congruence, and Marshall was his student. When I met Marshall, I appreciated that he came with the understanding that this is not just about listening, it is about communication. The way we listen relates to how we communicate. He broke important ground in the history of psychology. He wanted to broaden the work Carl Rogers was doing for the medical world, for doctors and nurses. He wanted to continue Carl’s work, but make it accessible to everyone.

He made it very clear that our emotions are the tip of the iceberg. They are like lights telling us something is comfortable or uncomfortable inside, and they are threads to inner needs. The descriptions of these needs were already developed by Abraham Maslow and others. All our emotions are an expression of inner needs, which are either met or not met, and this connection between emotions and needs brought a lot of clarity for me.

When we understand how to connect the needs behind emotions, it creates a shift in consciousness. It allows us to take full responsibility for our emotions, and stops us from being victims, blaming others and life’s situations. It also helps us to listen to others, hear their emotions, and go to the underlying needs; that is where discernment can happen.

That’s one dimension, and the other dimension is the process he put together. Making the connection between emotions and needs is useful in crisis and mediation. First, there is the importance of being able to make clear observations with no judgments. The topic of true observation has been covered by the beautiful work of J. Krishnamurti. Marshall’s work led from the observation dimension, to look at the emotions, the needs connected with those emotions, and then to see the requests that the needs translate into. He put together a very simple yet powerful and deep process that is helping millions of people today.

Ravi: In many ways, I think he went to second-order changes (changing the person versus the behavior). Clearly, you are someone who has done a lot of deep work in this area, you have thought a lot about it, you’ve learned a lot, and practiced a lot. It requires a high degree of alertness because you can easily slip; it doesn’t matter how good you are, you can slip!

Have you come away from an interaction and felt, “Oh gosh, I didn’t really listen well. Here’s what I should have done”? It is easy for somebody who is sloppy, but if you scale that mountain and then you slip, how do you deal with that?

Mark: I have developed some helpful tools, which I am now teaching and transmitting, and the book I’m writing is exposing these. The book’s current title is Being Before Doing, and the first thing I invite readers to do is become aware of the quality of their presence. Between the morning when we wake up and the night when we go to bed, the quality of our presence fluctuates. True for all of us. Of course, some people are amazing and just stay at the top level of presence all day, but they’re rare, I haven’t met many.

It’s important for me that even if I have something
difficult to say, I am truly authentic, first with myself,
then with the other. Then I use language where the other
is going to feel respected and motivated to keep the connection.

The first thing is to acknowledge that the quality of our presence fluctuates and then to observe without judgment its movement. Then we start to explore what it means to be fully present, and what it means to not be present. What does “being” mean for me? What does being present mean? It’s important that we find our own definitions without comparing with others.

I have developed an instrument called the Relational Compass, where there are four basic states of presence in which we fluctuate throughout the day. We can identify where we are, in terms of connection with ourselves, connection with others, and connection with life. As we embrace this, we observe and bring attention to these fluctuations. We get to know ourselves more from an observational point of view than an analytical point of view. We then take into consideration that others are also in one of those places, which eventually leads to compassion.

Ravi: That is very insightful, and I can’t wait to read the book. When are you targeting to have it out?

Mark: The second part of the year.

Ravi: I’m excited about it. It sounds like deep work and different work from what’s out there.

Mark: I hope the book will allow people to discover how to deepen and widen their listening, from a non-analytical point of view, as a starting point for self-observation, and observation of the relation. Also, I’ve discovered that when we reach a certain space of listening, our language changes. We start to develop what I call authentic and inclusive language.

When we understand how to connect the needs
behind emotions, it creates a shift in consciousness.
It allows us to take full responsibility for our emotions,
and stops us from being victims,
blaming others and life’s situations.
It also helps us to listen to others,
hear their emotions, and go to the underlying needs;
that is where discernment can happen.

Ravi: Fascinating! I noticed that about you during this interview; you practice what you preach. Your language was thoughtful and inclusive. The cadence was different. Does this have something to do with what you’ve developed yourself?

Mark: Becoming better listeners, developing our compassion and openness to the difference of others, opens our hearts. I experience that the more my heart is open and available to truly listen to others, the more I feel connected to life with a capital L. I’m also connected and listening to the source of Life.

Yes, what I’m sharing is what I have developed for myself. It’s important for me that even if I have something difficult to say, I am truly authentic, first with myself, then with the other. Then I use language where the other is going to feel respected and motivated to keep the connection. It’s related to Marshall Rosenberg’s work, and I’m bringing in another angle.

Ravi: One concept that’s often talked about is that when you listen inside and you go deep enough, you hear a voice that’s beyond or above yourself. So, what role does faith or belief in something beyond ourselves play in tuning ourselves to be better listeners? More specifically, has that played a role for you?

Becoming better listeners, developing our compassion and openness to the difference of others, opens our hearts. I experience that the more my heart is open and available to truly listen to others, the more I feel connected to life with a capital L. I’m also connected and listening to the source of Life. As Rumi beautifully said, “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.”

Ravi: Well, I couldn’t have asked for a better set of ideas to start my series, The Heartful Listener.

Thank you, Ravi.

Ravi: Thank you, Mark!

Becoming better listeners, developing our compassion and
openness to the difference of others, opens our hearts.
I experience that the more my heart is open and
available to truly listen to others,
the more I feel connected to life with a capital L.
I’m also connected and listening to the source of Life.

Mark Milton